dark273
Experienced Haunter
Posts: 117
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Post by dark273 on Sept 2, 2017 5:20:32 GMT
Wild & Crazy needs to be improved. As a matter of fact there is a slight chance that it actually just straight up not working at all. If you read the official strategy guide it actually says it is meant to cause medium belief increase (so roughly the same as something like haunted hail) and light terror to all mortals which would make sense since in context it is essentially a more extreme strange behavior which is the same way a move to increase belief. Also Sparkstorm which is a same level electric move is a straight up terror move so it also would make sense that Wild & Crazy is the opposite that is for increasing belief. But as anyone could tell Wild & Crazy does absolutely nothing outside of some damage to electric device in the room. And no it is not like with certain other types of powers where it only works under certain conditions, no matter if the mortal have a fear electricity also does not have a high enough belief requirement to work either it just never does anything. This power should have the highest priority to fix up. It can actually make the little girl in Unusual Suspects faint (and scares her a lot as well) if you use it at the very beginning on the electric device in Electrospasms room. It's quite odd and I don't really understand what's going on but I would guess that it is some kind of interaction resulting from freeing Electrospasm. Further it can actually jam you from using Strange Behavior (on the device you used Wild & Crazy on) which actually makes it have a negative effect in most cases (this would be fantastic to change aswell if it is at all possible). The odd thing though is that Gremlins are still incredibly powerful despite a wasted high level power slot. But your suggestion does make sense as Wild & Crazy is basicly the more powerful version of Strange Behavior (as far as the design goes, not the actual effect). The only thing I would be afraid of is that it makes Gremlins absurdly powerful. I think the developers might even have intentionally put this power down to keep Grelims reasonable (or it's just one of many bugs). I would suggest to make it a medium belief and slight madness increase if it were to be reimplemented as that wouldn't be quite as good as medium belief and slight scare on Gremlins that have no other madness powers. I absolutely agree on the frozen powers, they feel redundant if it does not affect running people. I had actualy never noticed the seeping blood bug myself. Oh and the Smokin Joe animations (which you asked about on another thread) are due to the original animations (with hitting the head and all) not working properly. The animations he has are basicly those that were working which might make them seem a bit clunky since they're incomplete. I made an older mod that did also put the 4 ghosts back into the game with animations and everything but I had to cut 4 other ghosts to make it. That Woitek was able to put them in without doing so is surely amazing.
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Post by foxfiend on Sept 2, 2017 10:51:11 GMT
It can actually make the little girl in Unusual Suspects faint (and scares her a lot as well) if you use it at the very beginning on the electric device in Electrospasms room. It's quite odd and I don't really understand what's going on but I would guess that it is some kind of interaction resulting from freeing Electrospasm. Further it can actually jam you from using Strange Behavior (on the device you used Wild & Crazy on) which actually makes it have a negative effect in most cases (this would be fantastic to change aswell if it is at all possible). The odd thing though is that Gremlins are still incredibly powerful despite a wasted high level power slot. But your suggestion does make sense as Wild & Crazy is basicly the more powerful version of Strange Behavior (as far as the design goes, not the actual effect). The only thing I would be afraid of is that it makes Gremlins absurdly powerful. I think the developers might even have intentionally put this power down to keep Grelims reasonable (or it's just one of many bugs). I would suggest to make it a medium belief and slight madness increase if it were to be reimplemented as that wouldn't be quite as good as medium belief and slight scare on Gremlins that have no other madness powers. I absolutely agree on the frozen powers, they feel redundant if it does not affect running people. I had actualy never noticed the seeping blood bug myself. Oh and the Smokin Joe animations (which you asked about on another thread) are due to the original animations (with hitting the head and all) not working properly. The animations he has are basicly those that were working which might make them seem a bit clunky since they're incomplete. I made an older mod that did also put the 4 ghosts back into the game with animations and everything but I had to cut 4 other ghosts to make it. That Woitek was able to put them in without doing so is surely amazing. Actually that not just scares the little girl but everyone in the building. However that is just an effect of Electrospasm's event, try using Wild & Crazy there again after Electrospasm is laid to rest and nothing will happen. As to why it scares the girl so much we can only guess since the dang camera forcefully focuses on the event and you can't see what happens but I do have a good guess. I think it probably turns all the lights off for a sec causing darkness fear for everyone and the girl's subconscious fear is actually darkness which is why she probably faints, as a matter of fact even if you possess her with ghost like Whirlweird she will still take a terror hit. An interesting thing about subconscious fears is that a hit from them affects a mortal EVEN WHILE POSSESSED when they are supposed to be immune to all powers (It is actually a very good thing to keep in mind when you try to protect a mortal). Got a little sidetracked but the point is that is just an event not Wild & Crazy actually working. I can see why you might think gremlins are very powerful but it honestly more just an illusion from that they are super versatile because electric fetter is by far more common then any other, that is also why fire elementals might feel better then others but that just because they have tons of fetters to use and easier to utilize. Gremlins definitely have a cool power pool for such low class haunters but if you think about it it is really only Cogjammer that is actually really well equipped with terror moves. Lucky only has Spark for terror and Hogwash only has Spark and Surge, stuff like blackout and blow fuse only scares someone if the mortal has fear of darkness. I would not worry about making them overpowered. If the terror for Wild & Crazy turns out too much I guess it could always be made so the terror only happens to those who are afraid of electric powers. Kinda like how Arboreal Prison increases belief but can cause terror to those that are afraid of being trapped. I have played quite some with the new ghosts now and here are my thoughts regarding their powers. Thorne is perfection, absolutely wonderfully fitting powers. No changes necessary at all. Azrael is good too. A surprisingly good job at making him different from Dragoon but still making him obviously a Headless Horseman. Well I am not sure exactly how I feel about Soulscreeh. I was skeptical at first with her madness powers since Brigit is kinda the insanity Banshee but she does have different ones like mania and psychotic rage and I guess I can see how it can fit. But still I am not sure. My expectations were more Terror and a few Weather flavored with some trademark banshee screechings, no extreme focus on either and more of a mix. But what I am sure of is that possess needs to go, that is just VERY unfitting and random for a banshee. Her phobia gives fear for cold which was a huge surprise to me. I honestly did not even know cold was possible as a fear. But as cool as it is I don't really see why would she give a fear of cold. I think something like fear of bad weather would be a lot more fitting. Finally Smokin Joe and I am sorry but that ghost is a Phantom in Apparition disguise. If you want him to be an Apparition he needs some serious changes because as he is right now he is EXACTLY like a Phantom. Apparitions sort of trademark qualities are manifestation powers and attraction powers like intrigue and fascinate, Smokin Joe has only one power like that. It is important to differentiate ghosts but you can't completely ignore what defines a certain type of ghost. I would make it so that he at the absolute very least have 2 attraction and 2 manifestation power.
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Post by Woitek on Sept 2, 2017 11:39:37 GMT
Thank you guys for your support. I really appreciate your help. Wild & Crazy power is for sure a thing what I have to check. A slight buff should not very affect a whole class of gremlins, but instead it can improve an experience from using them. Talking about rejected ghosts, it's only a early build of this mod. I plan to rewamp them all to fit in their orginal scenarios. I've really tried to make SmokinJoe fun to play in this build, but because of his animations what are not completed, I couldn't give him powers typical to appartions. After I write a export/import for bsp to 3dsmax/Maya, I try to fix them up, and make him like the other ghosts from his class. Soulscreech was a xavomel idea of creating a Banshee based on madness powers. I like this concept a lot, because there are not so many ghosts what have such amount of madness powers at once, but speaking of which nerfing her a bit can be a good idea when I implement her into the level.
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dark273
Experienced Haunter
Posts: 117
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Post by dark273 on Sept 2, 2017 15:36:12 GMT
I can see why you might think gremlins are very powerful but it honestly more just an illusion from that they are super versatile because electric fetter is by far more common then any other, that is also why fire elementals might feel better then others but that just because they have tons of fetters to use and easier to utilize. Gremlins definitely have a cool power pool for such low class haunters but if you think about it it is really only Cogjammer that is actually really well equipped with terror moves. Lucky only has Spark for terror and Hogwash only has Spark and Surge, stuff like blackout and blow fuse only scares someone if the mortal has fear of darkness. I would not worry about making them overpowered. Blackout puts mortals on edge (effectively all mortals on the map if noone is outside), making your next power hit with double points. That's incredibly powerful and I always pick it over Spark Storm. Wild Geese and Fools Errand are also fantastic set-up abilities and they help you with just about all the objective based levels and with freeing certain ghosts while only having to compete with other low class abilities that scare for almost nothing (making low level powers with utility or on edge the better options). Strange Behavior is further a great belief power. The only drawbacks Cogjammer really has are Jinx and Wild & Crazy (2 powers that are only useful in certain situations and give you very little beyond that). with Lucky it's a bit of a shame because I don't think that Luckstorm could ever compete with Surge or Charm with Blackout (or even Spark Storm) despite neither power being bad (and I love Luckstorm personally). If the terror for Wild & Crazy turns out too much I guess it could always be made so the terror only happens to those who are afraid of electric powers. Kinda like how Arboreal Prison increases belief but can cause terror to those that are afraid of being trapped. That's also a good suggestion. I'm definitely all for making Wild & Crazy useful. I do like the way all the new ghosts were implemented. Soulscreech is potentially what madness teams really needed to fully work because she has strong single target madness with a great fetter which helps you get started, whereas Brigit is aoe and needs more buildup. The Phobia I believe is random and Possess is put in under the condition that it is optional (because you might not necesarrily want to use it). I think it fits very well with her design because she was originally planned as an enemy ghost just like Dragoon and Posess captures that. The problem with Apparitions is that they very much lack diversity. The ice powers are not very useful which is why you wouldn't want them and this effectively leaves the only differences between them at Strange Vision or Hidden Maze and Ghostly Apparition or Obsession. I don't really see why Smokin Joe has to fit directly in there when Blue Murder is all you would ever want from an Apparition already. I think designwise Smokin Joe looks a lot more like a Phantom aswell which is why I like the touch of making him a bit of a crossover (for instance Twister fits his design exceptionally well and in my opinion also Etheral Gift which was my suggestion).
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Post by foxfiend on Sept 2, 2017 18:23:12 GMT
I do like the way all the new ghosts were implemented. Soulscreech is potentially what madness teams really needed to fully work because she has strong single target madness with a great fetter which helps you get started, whereas Brigit is aoe and needs more buildup. The Phobia I believe is random and Possess is put in under the condition that it is optional (because you might not necesarrily want to use it). I think it fits very well with her design because she was originally planned as an enemy ghost just like Dragoon and Posess captures that. The problem with Apparitions is that they very much lack diversity. The ice powers are not very useful which is why you wouldn't want them and this effectively leaves the only differences between them at Strange Vision or Hidden Maze and Ghostly Apparition or Obsession. I don't really see why Smokin Joe has to fit directly in there when Blue Murder is all you would ever want from an Apparition already. I think designwise Smokin Joe looks a lot more like a Phantom aswell which is why I like the touch of making him a bit of a crossover (for instance Twister fits his design exceptionally well and in my opinion also Etheral Gift which was my suggestion). Soulscreech is actually not bad and her power does fit very well for a banshee. Also I did say that her madness powers are different so they are not bad as I initially feared. I just feel like she could use some slight changes. Oh and you are actually correct, Soulscreech's Phobia indeed has a random effect. I guess it just threw me off guard since every other ghosts Phobia has a specific effect. That is actually very interesting but being random kinda takes away one of the main strategic advantages of the Phobia power. You usually want to pick some ghosts that are supported by the fear you can spread. Also sorry but I really don't see how does Possess connect to be an enemy ghost. Plus it is not just that it does not fit but also really pointless for a Banshee, you can pretty much summon them at any critical locations at both inside and outside. Ghosts with rare limited fetters like corpse and murder that can't even attract mortals needs it so they can reach more mortals. Banshees have one of the most versatile fetters. I actually highly agree that Apparitions are one of the most sameish family of ghosts in terms of power but even they have distinct individual potentials if you compare them. But even if you give Smokin Joe the minimum of 4 fitting power. You can still make him drastically different! He has 4 empty slots that can be anything don't forget there also choices too, heck not even all 4 of the trademark powers needs to be mandatory, one would definitely would be just as a choice. I think you are overreacting on this. Also the ghosts families in the game like Apparitions, Wights, Gremlins and etc are not some stuff the devs made up for the game, they are all based on actual stuff may it be some kind of spirit or some stereotypical cartoon ghosts. For example Apparitions are something that is affecting your mind and appears for you through visions and other stuff. So why should an Apparition have powers like that? Because that is exactly why an apparition is an apparition. We can't also just pop in any kind of powers into any ghost also because game design. Obviously each family of ghosts is for specific a role and each member can do things a little bit differently and honestly it is executed brilliantly. We don't want to break stuff like that. So I have been thinking about a suggestion but I would really like to hear the opinion from others on this. Anyone here who can beat every stage with 3 pumpkin can tell that even if you are a grandmaster of paranoia hits you can't get enough gold plasm to fully teach at least half of your ghosts. Obviously don't want to make things too easy but you really can't train all your ghosts into an useful shape. I personally find it very fun trying to make all my ghosts as useful as possible. So my suggestion is maybe an increase in the amount of gold plasm you earn? It could easily be just through by changing the pumpkin multipliers to higher. However I know there are potentials for plans of new stages and that would obviously allow more gold plasm to earn. But still I think it is something wroth thinking about.
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dark273
Experienced Haunter
Posts: 117
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Post by dark273 on Sept 2, 2017 20:04:23 GMT
Soulscreech is actually not bad and her power does fit very well for a banshee. Also I did say that her madness powers are different so they are not bad as I initially feared. I just feel like she could use some slight changes. Oh and you are actually correct, Soulscreech's Phobia indeed has a random effect. I guess it just threw me off guard since every other ghosts Phobia has a specific effect. That is actually very interesting but being random kinda takes away one of the main strategic advantages of the Phobia power. You usually want to pick some ghosts that are supported by the fear you can spread. Also sorry but I really don't see how does Possess connect to be an enemy ghost. Plus it is not just that it does not fit but also really pointless for a Banshee, you can pretty much summon them at any critical locations at both inside and outside. Ghosts with rare limited fetters like corpse and murder that can't even attract mortals needs it so they can reach more mortals. Banshees have one of the most versatile fetters. I actually highly agree that Apparitions are one of the most sameish family of ghosts in terms of power but even they have distinct individual potentials if you compare them. But even if you give Smokin Joe the minimum of 4 fitting power. You can still make him drastically different! He has 4 empty slots that can be anything don't forget there also choices too, heck not even all 4 of the trademark powers needs to be mandatory, one would definitely would be just as a choice. I think you are overreacting on this. Also the ghosts families in the game like Apparitions, Wights, Gremlins and etc are not some stuff the devs made up for the game, they are all based on actual stuff may it be some kind of spirit or some stereotypical cartoon ghosts. For example Apparitions are something that is affecting your mind and appears for you through visions and other stuff. So why should an Apparition have powers like that? Because that is exactly why an apparition is an apparition. We can't also just pop in any kind of powers into any ghost also because game design. Obviously each family of ghosts is for specific a role and each member can do things a little bit differently and honestly it is executed brilliantly. We don't want to break stuff like that. So I have been thinking about a suggestion but I would really like to hear the opinion from others on this. Anyone here who can beat every stage with 3 pumpkin can tell that even if you are a grandmaster of paranoia hits you can't get enough gold plasm to fully teach at least half of your ghosts. Obviously don't want to make things too easy but you really can't train all your ghosts into an useful shape. I personally find it very fun trying to make all my ghosts as useful as possible. So my suggestion is maybe an increase in the amount of gold plasm you earn? It could easily be just through by changing the pumpkin multipliers to higher. However I know there are potentials for plans of new stages and that would obviously allow more gold plasm to earn. But still I think it is something wroth thinking about. No need to apologize. I can see why one would not agree with Posession on Soulscreech but I still like the option as it is one of the most underused mechanics in the game and as it can be very useful in some of the earlier levels where there aren't that many throughfares (and as most of Soulscreech's powers require mortals in the same room). I know the random Phobia disrupts strategy a bit but I find it quite fitting because Soulscreech is all about madness and she would want to use Phobia for just that, not really for the fear it causes. It's my bad about Smokin Joe, sorry. I did myself change his powers in the game files because I found them odd, too. With my edit his power table looks like this: 1. Flower Power 2. Intruige3. Hidden Maze4. Etheral Gift 5. Jinx/ Fascinate6. Spooky Surprise7. Paralyse/ Obsession8. Luckstorm/Twister With Flower Power and the 3 choices not being included from the start and all Apparition type powers in bold, making it 3 from the start + 2 optional ones. I checked back with the normal mod version and his power table there looks incredibly different and goes up to 9. I completely forgot about myself changing it. I did obviously foolishly refer to the table above in the entire discussion. I fully agree with you on Smokin Joe's powers being off in the mod. As far as Gold Plasm goes there is one way I'm aware of to get infinite gold plasm. I think there is a thread somewhere here about this but the basic rundown goes like this: 1. Go to Full Metal Jacket 2. Take Ghosts to uncover fears, one ghost to cast Inferno, a Sandman and Ghosts with madness powers 3. Uncover the fears of of everyone who is afraid of fire (either concious or sub-concious) and turn them mad 4. Bind the Sandman to anyone who is neither afraid of fire nor mad and have him Sleepwalk (you should probably set the Sandman to only use Sleepwalk) 5. Optionally turn as many others as you like mad or scare them off (the Priest has to either be scared off or to Sleepwalk because otherwise he will banish your ghosts) 6. Use Inferno outside 7. Let the game run for as long as you like 8. Profit 9. Finnish by unbinding the Sandman and scarring the last sane mortal off or by turning him/her insane aswell. The way this works is that the paranoias will be triggered all the time by the Inferno, yet the level will not end because the person sleepwalking is neither mad nor scared away. You will not get any Pumpkins but after some time the paranoias will make up for that and give you a score that is much, much higher than anything you could achieve with tripple pumpkins. With Soulscreech random phobias you should even be able to make this more effective because she could potentially cause additional fire phobias. It might also be worthwhile to use ghosts with attraction to ensure that the people are outside as often as possible. It is also possible on other stages but by far the most effective in FMJ. Though other means to get additional gold plasm would be great aswell. I have beat all stages with 3 pumpkins (while also freeing all ghosts which massively increases the score) but there's no way you get all powers on all ghosts with "just" that, yet it is still the most you can do without blatantly abusing the game mechanics (though I must say it is a very creative way of abusing game mechanics, I was very impressed when I first learned of this strategy).
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Post by foxfiend on Sept 2, 2017 21:02:04 GMT
As far as Gold Plasm goes there is one way I'm aware of to get infinite gold plasm. I think there is a thread somewhere here about this but the basic rundown goes like this: 1. Go to Full Metal Jacket 2. Take Ghosts to uncover fears, one ghost to cast Inferno, a Sandman and Ghosts with madness powers 3. Uncover the fears of of everyone who is afraid of fire (either concious or sub-concious) and turn them mad 4. Bind the Sandman to anyone who is neither afraid of fire nor mad and have him Sleepwalk (you should probably set the Sandman to only use Sleepwalk) 5. Optionally turn as many others as you like mad or scare them off (the Priest has to either be scared off or to Sleepwalk because otherwise he will banish your ghosts) 6. Use Inferno outside 7. Let the game run for as long as you like 8. Profit 9. Finnish by unbinding the Sandman and scarring the last sane mortal off or by turning him/her insane aswell. The way this works is that the paranoias will be triggered all the time by the Inferno, yet the level will not end because the person sleepwalking is neither mad nor scared away. You will not get any Pumpkins but after some time the paranoias will make up for that and give you a score that is much, much higher than anything you could achieve with tripple pumpkins. With Soulscreech random phobias you should even be able to make this more effective because she could potentially cause additional fire phobias. It might also be worthwhile to use ghosts with attraction to ensure that the people are outside as often as possible. It is also possible on other stages but by far the most effective in FMJ. Though other means to get additional gold plasm would be great aswell. I have beat all stages with 3 pumpkins (while also freeing all ghosts which massively increases the score) but there's no way you get all powers on all ghosts with "just" that, yet it is still the most you can do without blatantly abusing the game mechanics (though I must say it is a very creative way of abusing game mechanics, I was very impressed when I first learned of this strategy). Yeah I can see how would that strategy work. You probably could even do it with bad weather as well. Although I would never do it, it would annoy me too much not having 3 pumpkins at all stages on the high scares table. But yeah I would like to be able to get more sufficient gold plasm through normal ways. My general idea for the more gold plasm is something like this: 1 Pumpkin - 2X score 2 Pumpkin - 4X score 3 Pumpkin - 8x score Basically normal performance would still be the same, it would be the high skill runs that would more rewarding. Of course my multiplier numbers for the pumpkins is just an example, they can be as high as whatever works best.
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Post by Woitek on Sept 2, 2017 21:44:58 GMT
I wonder what should I do with beta ghosts, because actual menu can hold only three ghosts per class. Also I need to classify other ghosts like Ghost with no name, director, and give them sensible powers what makes them fit and unique at the same time.
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Post by foxfiend on Sept 2, 2017 22:53:35 GMT
I wonder what should I do with beta ghosts, because actual menu can hold only three ghosts per class. Also I need to classify other ghosts like Ghost with no name, director, and give them sensible powers what makes them fit and unique at the same time. Obviously the problem for me is I don't know what you can and can't do. I would say edit the haunter selection screen, if you could cut off all the big empty parts off from the ghost powers window at the bottom I think there might just be enough space a fourth haunter but again I don't even know if that is something possible to change. I think to classify the beta ghosts is probably the easiest, I can do it for you right now if four ghosts are okay. Boy Wisp - Wisp I think it is pretty self explanatory and I don't need to give an explanation. Crazy Bill - Mane The wacky mail man really does not strike me as a high class haunter so I am going with a mane, I could easily see his remains stuck somewhere and you need to set him free. Ghost with no name - Spectre Without a doubt a high class haunter plus his demise was obviously through murder (just judging by the numerous bullet holes in his body). He does not look electric so I have to say Spectre which I think is very fitting too. Hunchcork - Phantom Okay so let's see, with the Phantoms we have a pianist and a painter. I have a feeling a director will have no problem fitting in with them. Also emotional fetter just seem like a very logical fetter for him.
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Post by leotachy on Sept 3, 2017 5:23:15 GMT
I was thinking a lot about this, maybe its BS, idk.
How about disabling darkling's powers in cuckoos nest when he's not unlocked yet. This would make a bit more harder and a bit more logical. People could expierence cutscene where darkling takes professor's soul. I was watching some let's plays on that mission and most of the time, people scare or make dr.krauss insane straight away.
Also, darkling is being captured by using 5 insane people. I think it should make darkling powerless until he gets captured.
What do you think about it?
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